mtndrew1
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:06 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: TMS Behavior

Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:19 pm

JejuSoul wrote:From the data by mtndrew1 - Palm Springs Summer TMS Torture Test! we can update how the the different fan status is activated at the following temps.

Level 1 : 31C - 33C
Level 2 : 33C - 36C
Level 3 : 36C - 39C
Level 4 : 39C - 41C
Level 5 : 41C - 43C
Level 6 : 43C - 45C
Level 7 : 45C - ???


Thank you for breaking this down.

I feel like the TMS software could be set up in such a manner to be a little proactive about cooling the battery pack. For example, if the outside temperature is 40C and the pack is 35C, I would like for the battery fan to come on at level 1 as soon as I start the car and the interior temp dips below 35C just as an active measure to slow the temperature rise.

As it's set up now the car seems to wait for the pack temp to rise over a threshold before actively trying to bring the temp back down. I'd prefer for the system to get out ahead of the coming temperature rise, particularly in high ambient temperature conditions. I was rather shocked that the battery fan didn't just ramp right up to level 9 (max) as soon as I connected it to a CHAdeMO in 40C+ temps with a cool interior, instead it waited for 43C before doing anything about it.

SoulEV2016
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:26 am

Re: TMS Behavior

Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:28 pm

Image

Lithium-ion performs well at elevated temperatures but prolonged exposure to heat reduces longevity. Some lithium-based packs are momentarily heated to high temperatures. This applies to batteries in surgical tools that are sterilized at 137°C (280°F) for up to 20 minutes as part of autoclaving. Oil and gas drilling as part of fracking also exposes the battery to high temperatures.

Capacity loss at elevated temperature is in direct relationship with state-of-charge (SoC). Figure 4 illustrates the effect of Li-cobalt (LiCoO2) that is first cycled at room temperature (RT) and then heated to 130°C (266°F) for 90 minutes and cycled at 20, 50 and 100 percent SoC. There is no noticeable capacity loss at room temperature. At 130°C with a 20 percent SoC, a slight capacity loss is visible over 10 cycles. This loss is higher with a 50 percent SoC and shows a devastating effect when cycled at full charge.


;) http://www.batteryuniversity.com/learn/ ... mperatures
Kia Soul EV 2016 Ultimate 27 kWh - Mountain hard driving (fast). Drain 1/3 of Battery after 32km. - Unlimited highway speed (153km/h at regulator).

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:59 pm

SoulEV2016 - people don't get to see that image unless they go the battery university page. (Once you've been there it caches and you can see it on this forum).
The image you want is this one. (Note this is about sterilising medical equipment not the Soul EV battery charging.)

Image

There is already a thread about the battery university website on this forum. Battery University a good resource for battery info

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For information specific to the Soul EV I suggest looking at this thread - Comparing Battery Chemistries

In particular see the USABC_Final_Report_June_2014 (for SK Innovation E400 see printed pages E21-E23, on screen pages 145-147)

Image

Code: Select all

On 80% retention basis, LMO-free E400 can maintain 3.1 years, 3.6 years, 4.6 years, and 9.8 years in 30°C, Phoenix, Honolulu, and Minneapolis, respectively. This is the result result from SOC 100% storage, and when SOC conditions responding real life are applied, calendar estimated life will be much longer than this. From accumulated NCM cell experiences of SKI, calendar life of SOC 50% is approximately five times longer than that of SOC 100%, and calendar life of lower end SOC is approximately 20 times longer than that of SOC 100%. Thus, it is considered to last more than 10 years when real life SOC conditions are applied to LMO-free E400.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:51 pm

mtndrew1 wrote:I feel like the TMS software could be set up in such a manner to be a little proactive about cooling the battery pack. For example, if the outside temperature is 40C and the pack is 35C, I would like for the battery fan to come on at level 1 as soon as I start the car and the interior temp dips below 35C just as an active measure to slow the temperature rise.

As it's set up now the car seems to wait for the pack temp to rise over a threshold before actively trying to bring the temp back down. I'd prefer for the system to get out ahead of the coming temperature rise, particularly in high ambient temperature conditions. I was rather shocked that the battery fan didn't just ramp right up to level 9 (max) as soon as I connected it to a CHAdeMO in 40C+ temps with a cool interior, instead it waited for 43C before doing anything about it.

True. The Soul EV ain't no T esla. We didn't pay for the best and we don't get the best. (And sadly, unlike a T esla, the car I bought will never update)

The systems in the Soul EV seem to be separate. There is no connection between the BMS and the HVAC. They do not work together. In a T esla the whole car seems to be designed as a single system. In our car the battery pack is made by SK Innovation. They sell this pack to various manufacturers. It is obvious really that the BMS would be stand-alone. They don't know what HVAC system other manufacturers would put in. In our car the HVAC system is made by Hanon. They too sell their system to various manufacturers. It is not designed specifically to work in a Soul EV with an SK pack.

Here's another data example of the less than perfect behaviour of our TMS.
Ambient Temp 33C, inlet temp was 33C, battery temps 29C. AC off. The battery fan will not come on because the air is hotter.
Then I washed the car.
Ambient Temp 28C, inlet temp was 33C, battery temps 29C. AC off. The battery fan will not come on because the air is hotter.
Turn the AC on
Ambient Temp 28C, inlet temp was 33C, battery temps 29C. AC on, cabin temp 24C. The battery fan will not come on because the BMS wrongly believes the air is hotter.

The battery fan does not come on until the battery temps are above the inlet temps. It will now start at level 2.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Tue May 02, 2017 9:01 pm

-
A summary of the battery fan BMS data on the Soul EV we surmised last summer

The values for Fan Status, Fan Feedback and the temps at which they come on are

Code: Select all

Status   Feedback [Hz]          Temp[C]
Level 0            0                  < 31
Level 1            42               31C - 33C   
Level 2            50               33C - 36C
Level 3            58               36C - 39C
Level 4            67               39C - 41C
Level 5            75               41C - 43C
Level 6            85               43C - 45C 
Level 7            88               45C - ???
Level 8            95               ?
Level 9            100             ?


Some pictures of the battery cooling system. Air inlet is the two vents under the front seats. The output is the long back pipe that extends to the back. The single fan is at the very back.

Image

The fan sits in a well in the back where the spare tire would normally go.

Image
Last edited by JejuSoul on Mon May 15, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 pm

-
The Kia Ray EV uses the same system as the Soul EV with the same BMS codes.

Image

Two inlets - one under each front seat.
Image

Two outlets - either side of the trunk. I assume there are two fans.
Image

------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some Torque Screenshots of the Battery Temps during a Chademo charge.

Image

Image

And a graph of a Chademo session. Ambient temps 24C.

Image


In testing so far I have seen Fan Status 1, 2 and 3 come on when Max Temp reaches 31C, 33C and 36C. The corresponding Fan Feedback are 20Hz, 28Hz and 36Hz

Update: Latest test saw Fan Status 4 come on when Max Temp reaches 39C. The corresponding Fan Feedback was 44Hz.
Interestingly after disconnecting the chademo cable and restarting the car I saw this.

Image
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

GizmoEV
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:39 pm
Location: Kelso, WA

Re: TMS Behavior

Sun May 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Just last night I noticed a new behavior of the TMS fan. This was after the 4th quick charge of the day. The pack was something over 40 degrees by the end of the charge and I had heard the fan come on as soon as charging started. I don't remember off hand what the fan rate was. What was strange was that after ending the charge at about 77% and turning on the car I heard the fan running and checked and it was at level 1. When I put the car in reverse and started to move the fan speed moved up to level 3 or 4. When I stopped it went back down to 1. I had a few traffic lights before getting on the freeway and each time I came to a stop the fan speed dropped to 1 and increased when I started to move. The stronger I accelerated and the faster I went the higher the fan speed went. IIRC, it went to level 7 when I got on the freeway and was doing about 60mph.

I wonder if this behavior is so that the occupants don't hear the fan very much.
David D. Nelson

Blue 2016 Soul EV+ & Cloud 2018 Soul EV+ :D :o

SoulEV2016
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:26 am

Re: TMS Behavior

Mon May 22, 2017 2:57 am

GizmoEV wrote:I wonder if this behavior is so that the occupants don't hear the fan very much.


yes.

log of variable fan linked to throttle are here : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=629
variable fan comes with A/C usage, too (i don't use on this graphic).

Image
Kia Soul EV 2016 Ultimate 27 kWh - Mountain hard driving (fast). Drain 1/3 of Battery after 32km. - Unlimited highway speed (153km/h at regulator).

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:47 pm

-
Some new data from Kish - 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Kish wrote: I took a 300+ mile road trip which required driving fast at highway speeds, as well as multiple DCFCs back-to-back (4 in total). Ambient temp was in the low - mid 70s. After the 3rd DCFC, I noticed that the battery temp was getting pretty warm at 100F. After the 4th DCFC, the battery temp was over 120F!


Image

This car has the hottest battery so far recorded! 122F = 50C. Fan speed level 8.
At this temp the motor output power was limited to 63 kW! First time we have seen this.

Adding this new fan data value to the table for Fan Status, Fan Feedback and the temps at which they come on we see:

Code: Select all

Status   Feedback [Hz]          Temp[C]
Level 0            0                   < 31
Level 1            42               31C - 33C   
Level 2            50               33C - 36C
Level 3            58               36C - 39C
Level 4            67               39C - 41C
Level 5            75               41C - 43C
Level 6            85               43C - 45C 
Level 7            88               45C - 49C
Level 8            95               50C - ???
Level 9            100               ?
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: TMS Behavior

Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:35 am

-
This table of battery fan data was written for the 27kWh Soul EV with the original BMS.
I now have a replacement battery with updated cells, and an updated version of the BMS.
In my testing so far the battery fan data is identical with before.
Can someone with a 30kWh Soul EV who lives in a hot summer region confirm if these numbers are the same.


A table for Fan Status, Fan Feedback and the temps at which they come on:

Code: Select all

Status   Feedback [Hz]          Temp[C]
Level 0            0                   < 31
Level 1            42               31C - 33C   
Level 2            50               33C - 36C
Level 3            58               36C - 39C
Level 4            67               39C - 41C
Level 5            75               41C - 43C
Level 6            85               43C - 45C 
Level 7            88               45C - 49C
Level 8            95               50C - ???
Level 9            100               ?
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

Return to “Batteries and Charging”