Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:12 pm

As promised, here is the Torque info from the new battery pack:

Image

Interesting to see that the SOH reads 110% at 29.7 kWh. Is Kia giving us "free" 2.7 kWh before the SOH reading kicks in? If so, then the battery capacity warranty is really at 80% SOH, since we'd have to lose 10.8 kWh to get to 18.9 kWh (70% SOH of 27 kWh). :D Regardless, I will do a drain/range test to see if 29.7 kWh is actually usable.

As an aside, looks like Torque is reading the Lost SOH / % wrong! It thinks that the battery has lost 10% of SOH instead of having it gained (which is a weird situation anyway). Should be easy to fix? -10% "SOH loss" instead of 10% when SOH is > 100%.
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:24 am

I did a drain/range test. Looks like the answer is "no" to my question earlier. I was able to drive a total of 81.2 miles to 1% SOC, at 80 mph (2.5 mi/kWh). The last 10 miles or so was at slower speed (55 mph). My SOH in Torque (110%) was unchanged after a full recharge to 100%.

Image

EVSE recharging data:

Image

Let's calculate the kWh actually used/recharged on the car's end:

Before driving:
CEC: 208 kwh
CED: 198 kwh

After driving:
CEC: 210 kwh
CED: 226 kwh

After charging:
CEC: 237 kwh
CED: 226 kwh

kWh used while driving
= total kWh discharged - total kWh charged (regen)
= (226 kWh - 198 kWh) - (210 kWh - 208 kWh)
= 28 kWh - 2 kWh
= 26 kWh

kWh used to charge
= CEC (after charging) - CEC (before charging).
= 237 kWh - 210 kWh
= 27 kwh

So it looks like I only used 26 kWh for driving 100% -> 1% SOC, which makes sense as the SOC was still at 1% (SOC BMS was at 2.5%). So there was probably still at least 1 kWh lingering in the last 1%. The car took 27 kWh to recharge from level 2 AC (which I'm assuming includes internal charging losses?). Finally, comparing this to the EVSE data shows that the OBC is 27/29.42 = 91.8% efficient.

Thus, even though the SOH shows as 110% (29.7 kWh usable), only 27 kWh is actually usable from a brand new battery pack.
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

JejuSoul
Posts: 1419
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:41 pm

-
Hi Kish. Thanks for posting the data. All looks good. It is the total energy that you can put into, and get out of the pack that confirms the usable capacity in your battery is 27kWh. This is the same as a brand new 2015 Soul EV. Hence you do not have a newer 2018 battery pack with 30kWh usable capacity.

The torque data showing zero deterioration may or may not be accurate. A BMS reset would set this to zero, just like the real zero on a brand new pack.

So there are a few possibilities about your new battery pack.

1. It is a brand new pack identical to the original. These had a total capacity of 30.5kWh, and a usable capacity of 27kWh.

2. It is a new pack that has been sitting in a warehouse for a year or more. It may have lost some capacity from the total but it still has a usable capacity of 27kWh. In a month or two there may be a sudden drop in the deterioration numbers as the BMS calibrates. You still have the 27kWh usable capacity and SOH=100%, but during the time it was stored it lost some capacity from the 10% buffer. This is often the case with new cars that have been sitting on dealer lots for a year or more.

3. It is a refurbished pack. They have found 'good' modules from broken batteries and put them back into a 'new' battery. I think this is unlikely because the labor cost involved is probably higher than just giving you a new battery.

4. It is a brand new pack based on the new 30kWh design that has been software limited to 27kWh. This would be the best for you. You still only have a usable capacity of 27kWh. But that will last a lot longer than usual because you will have a much larger buffer. I think this is currently less likely. But in future they will surely run out of the original packs, and they will have to do something like this.

Please keep reporting it will be interesting to have more data on this pack.

I will answer the questions about the Torque display showing 110% on the Torque thread. - Setting up Torque to show BMS data

There's an interesting article by a Leaf owner about his battery replacement here (click to download a pdf file) - http://bit.ly/2A2tJDc
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:37 pm

Ah yes, I didn't at all consider the fact that the Torque PIDs for SOH could be providing the wrong info, since you guys are calculating this from the deterioration numbers from the BMS. Thus showing 110% instead of 100% SOH. Now that you mention it, it's definitely a similar effect to the usual BMS reset that the dealership does.

I also agree that scenario #4 is unlikely, because the 30 kWh usable Soul EV's wasn't available in the U.S. until recently, in the MY 2018. Thus it doesn't make sense for Kia to "waste" one of those newer battery packs in an older model 2015. Scenario #1-3 is likely, with #2 or #3 most likely. I will surely be reporting SOH readings as time passes. Let me know if there's other PID values you're interested in.
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:29 pm

I DCFC'd my car for the first time today with the new battery pack. Three new pieces of information to report:

1) My car DCFC'd straight up to 94% without stopping! :shock: The 2015 Soul EVs are software-coded to stop charging at 84%, and we could manually initiate a 2nd charge which will bring it up to 94%, after then it will stop again. This behavior is also clearly mentioned in the 2015 Soul EV user manual. I verified this behavior multiple times with my previous (original?) battery pack, and it always stopped DCFC'ing at 84%.

I know that 2016+ Kia Soul EVs removed this original limitation of stopping at 84% and only stopped once charge has reached 94%. This could potentially mean that this new battery pack replacement that I've received was originally intended to go into a 2016+ Soul EV. Either that, or the new BMS that was installed is again from a 2016+ Soul EV so it was software coded to stop at 94% instead of 84%. (or both!)

As an aside, on 125A 50kW DCFCers, I notice that the charge from 0 - 83% is quite fast (~45kW), and it slows down from 83%+. Especially 90% - 94% is quite slow (< 10kW).

2) I took a 300+ mile road trip which required driving fast at highway speeds, as well as multiple DCFCs back-to-back (4 in total). Ambient temp was in the low - mid 70s. After the 3rd DCFC, I noticed that the battery temp was getting pretty warm at 100F. After the 4th DCFC, the battery temp was over 120F! :!:

Image

The Torque reading above was directly after the 4th DCFC. You can see that the battery inlet temp (cabin temp) is at 78.8F, but the battery temp is at 122F, quite hot! I had the car turned off during the DCFC sessions, so the A/C was not running to help cool the cabin/battery. The battery cooling fan was pretty much spinning at full speed (95%?).

3) After the 4th DCFC session, I also noticed while driving on the highway that the throttle response wasn't that good. I quickly checked Torque and noticed that the motor output power is being limited to 63 kW! :o (Down from 90 kW usually).

Image

The Torque reading above shows that both the motor output power and regen have both been limited to 63 kW. I'm assuming the BMS is doing this to protect the battery since it's so hot? Later in the day when I allowed the car to sit for a few hours, the battery temp had dropped down to 100F and the motor output power was back up to 90 kW. The ambient temp by this time was down to low - mid 60s.
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

JejuSoul
Posts: 1419
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:36 pm

-
I have a 2015 Soul EV with the original BMS software, but updated OBC firmware. It quick charges to 83%. The blue lights do not come on.
There is much confusion about the BMS update - BMS software update
The BMS software update is known as Service Action 297
Some people say it now quick charges to 94% in one session, some say it remains the same. Some people say the blue lights do come on.
Some people think that resetting the BMS magically increases battery capacity.
Perhaps this new firmware has a new algorithm for calculating SOH? Perhaps not?

Image

Maybe there is more than one update available, or maybe it depends on a combination of upgrades. Anyway during the battery replacement many of the ECUs in your car must have been upgraded. Without knowing all the ROM IDs it would be hard to know exactly.

------------------------------------

Your issue regarding power reduction at extreme temperatures is new to this forum.
The issue of temperature / fast charging / very high ambient temp was discussed here - Palm Springs Summer TMS Torture Test!
Also see - TMS Behavior - for details on how the cooling fan works.

The previous known values for Fan Status, Fan Feedback and the temps at which they come on are

Code: Select all

Status   Feedback [Hz]          Temp[C]
Level 0            0                  < 31
Level 1            42               31C - 33C   
Level 2            50               33C - 36C
Level 3            58               36C - 39C
Level 4            67               39C - 41C
Level 5            75               41C - 43C
Level 6            85               43C - 45C 
Level 7            88               45C - ???
Level 8            95               ?
Level 9            100             ?


We can now add level 8. Your car has the hottest battery so far recorded!
We can see that at 50C the fan speed is level 8.

------------------------------------

In the Torque screenshot what are the 3 PID codes that are not found? Which Torque dashboard are you using?
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:53 pm

Ah, I figured something out!

I noticed that Torque "charge power" reading always stayed at 0.0 kW (as well as charge volts/amps/output volts). Even during DCFC sessions, these values stayed at 0.0. Then today, while charging at level 2 AC, I was watching it and noticed that "charge amps" was going to 360 A or so, which is totally incorrect. So I figured this must have been switched with the voltage readings. Indeed I downloaded and swapped to the Kia_Soul_EV_OBC2016_data instead of the 2015 one I had previously installed and it worked! Now I'm getting correct readings for level 2 AC at 6.7 kW (as well as proper readings for amps/volts). This is a confirmation that indeed that the new BMS they installed must have been a 2016+ version, which in conjunction with new OBC firmware also explains why my DCFC session ends at 94%? By the way, my 3 blue lights on the dash does stay on while DCFC'ing.

As far as the dash I'm using, I thought it was pemessier_1080x1920_xxhdpi.dash, but looks like mine is slightly different. The layout and the values are identical, but some of the labels are different. Regardless, I loaded in the pemessier dash and the 3 missing PIDs are still not available. I also cleared and reloaded all 8 relevant PID files. What's supposed to be in those boxes?

Edit:
Looks like they're supposed be "OBC heatsink", "OBC inside", and "OBC Water". Yeah, not sure why these aren't being loaded (neither with 2015 or 2016 OBC PIDs).

Edit 2:
These values do show up using the other dash, SoulEV2016_720x1280_xhdpi.dash. Looks like the pemessier dash just needs to be edited to load in the proper PIDs?
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

Kish
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 pm
Location: SoCal, CA

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:08 am

Some piece of bad news. To quote you from before:

JejuSoul
According to the lab data 45C (113F) is the threshold when major deterioration starts to occur.


Take a look at this:

Image

Image

My SOH % has dropped down from 110% (29.7 kWh) to 109.5% (29.6 kWh). "Max kWh" has dropped down to 28.1 kWh (from 28.2 kWh). We know that these readings aren't 100% accurate, but this does mean some deterioration has occurred, and full 27 kWh is probably no longer usable. Furthermore, the "Max Deterioration" has jumped up to 1% on cell #2. Earlier, the brand new battery pack had "Max Det" at 0% for all cells.

This deterioration is probably due to a combination of 1) back-to-back DCFC (at 50kW) + 2) highspeed driving on highway (80mph) + 3) loaded car with passengers (and luggage) + 4) moderate ambient temps (75F). I don't even want to know what would've happened if ambient was 90-100F+.
Needless to say, I'll probably take my other EV for longer roadtrips and avoid DCFC'ing the Soul EV back-to-back. I'll probably keep the Soul EV as an "around town" car, especially since the boxy shape isn't great for high speed driving (2.5 mi/kWh). It would be a shame to kill the battery pack right after I got a new one!
Last edited by Kish on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
2015 Soul EV+ | 47k miles
2017 Bolt EV Premier | 52k miles

alexank
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:48 pm

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:22 pm

@Kish Thankyou for making the time to share this very interesting reading

A couple of things spring to mind
I wonder if the previous owner overheated the battery regularly as well by doing regular long trips, the cumulative result may have been the degradation you inherited.

I also wonder if yours is a one off, maybe the fan etc in the boot is faulty, air flow restricted etc?
Keith Alexander, Shropshire UK

ZuinigeRijder
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:59 am

Re: 2015 Soul EV: My Battery Replacement Story

Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:18 am

Kish wrote:Some piece of bad news. To quote you from before:

According to the lab data 45C (113F) is the threshold when major deterioration starts to occur.


Take a look at this:

Image

Image

My SOH % has dropped down from 110% (29.7 kWh) to 109.5% (29.6 kWh). "Max kWh" has dropped down to 28.1 kWh (from 28.2 kWh). We know that these readings aren't 100% accurate, but this does mean some deterioration has occurred, and full 27 kWh is probably no longer usable. Furthermore, the "Max Deterioration" has jumped up to 1% on cell #2. Earlier, the brand new battery pack had "Max Det" at 0% for all cells.


I do not understand the "Lost SOH %" and "Lost SOH kWh". If would expect this to be 0.5% and 0.1 kWh (27 kWh = 100%, 29.7 kWh = 110%).
Or do you have a Soul 2018 with a larger batterypack or mixing up the Torque PID codes for Soul 2018 version?

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