JeroenE
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:46 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:04 am

JejuSoul wrote:
JeroenE wrote:...I could get the battery replaced under warranty. They will be doing this next Thursday.
...I'm currently at 155k km...

I thought the warranty in Europe was 150,000km. not true?
In The Netherlands the warranty is 7 years or 150k km. There is no replacement battery in The Netherlands so it has to come from Kia in Korea. It takes several weeks for an order to arrive (just like my replacement engines). In the mean time I'm still driving the car so my mileage is now higher.

I don't know if I'll get an new, refurbished of repaired battery. As far as I could tell from the stories on this forum people get a new battery.

Oinq
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:34 am
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:40 am

JeroenE wrote:The garage wouldn't replace it under warranty because I didn't use the Kia granny charger.


Just a question, what do you mean with you don't use the Kia "granny" charger?
As far as I remember in the car manual, they say to not recharge regularly with the Kia's supplied charger.

Code: Select all

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GHPRH6iS98wNhViDA


Soul EV 2016

JeroenE
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:46 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:07 am

Oinq wrote:
JeroenE wrote:The garage wouldn't replace it under warranty because I didn't use the Kia granny charger.


Just a question, what do you mean with you don't use the Kia "granny" charger?
As far as I remember in the car manual, they say to not recharge regularly with the Kia's supplied charger.
I used the same type of charger but from Mitsubishi. In the manual it says only Kia certified portable chargers should be used. In the Dutch version it says so on page 43 of the special green part where all the procedures of the EV are explained.

This of course is not true, you can use any. The so-called granny charger is not something special, it just is box which works like a (slow) charging pole. There is no difference in functionality between the granny charger and a normal charging pole, except the speed of the charging. Of course, you usually need to pay for using a real charging pole and the granny charger can be used in any outlet.

In the Dutch manual it only says that a) normal charging is recommended, b) quick charging should only be used when needed and can shorten the lifetime of the battery and c) if you can't use the normal or quick charging you can use the slow charging with the portable charging cable.

I'm not sure if I use the same words as in the English manuals, I'm paraphrasing what the Dutch one says.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:30 pm

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In July I sold my Hyundai BlueOn and bought a second 2015 Soul EV.

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The blue Soul EV I have had for 4 1/2 years. It has done 60,750km. The GOM always shows about 185km at full charge.
The white Soul EV had done 75,000. The GOM showed 155km at full charge. Both cars showing 8.5km / kWh.
I made a guess when I bought it that the white one had 155 / 185 = 84% SOH.

The initial reading from Torque was -
Using the formula in Torque the SOH would be 89.9%, but using Elmil's new formula the SOH would be 84.8%

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A week later I got an official reading from Kia.The SOH is 84.8% which matches Elmil's new formula.

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The white car I just bought seems to have a 'bad' battery. The interesting question is, does my old blue Soul EV also follow a degradation pattern based on Elmil's new formula. The answer seems to be no. The data fits the original formula much better.
There is no official reading from Kia that shows any difference for my blue Soul EV yet.

Image

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The important point here is not the argument about what formula to use, it is the fact that for a substantial number of our cars very rapid degradation will occur leading to a replacement battery.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JeroenE
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:46 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:19 pm

JejuSoul wrote:The important point here is not the argument about what formula to use, it is the fact that for a substantial number of our cars very rapid degradation will occur leading to a replacement battery.
I'm not sure but it seems to me (whilst driving a car with a bad battery) that you could sense the battery getting worse every week. Perhaps due to the fact I had to do more quick charging than usual, and especially because it was summer.

My guess is that the air cooling is good enough for a normal battery but once it gets bad the battery gets hotter when charging and then the cooling is not sufficient any more. My car also knew something was wrong because the quick charging was throttled down pretty quickly.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:24 pm

JeroenE wrote:...I'm not sure but it seems to me (whilst driving a car with a bad battery) that you could sense the battery getting worse every week. Perhaps due to the fact I had to do more quick charging than usual, and especially because it was summer.

My guess is that the air cooling is good enough for a normal battery but once it gets bad the battery gets hotter when charging and then the cooling is not sufficient any more. My car also knew something was wrong because the quick charging was throttled down pretty quickly.

Yes, summer temperatures combined with long drives may be a big factor in the recent volatility of the deterioration counters on my white Soul EV. The blue Soul EV is driven less and more gently. It does not show any recent change. The counters on the white Soul EV change about every day.

Here's the driving info for the first half of each daily commute.

The white Soul EV takes the freeway over the mountain.
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The blue Soul EV takes city roads along the coast.
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Obviously the battery of the white Soul EV gets much hotter, because it has the faster, longer drive. Summer temperatures means it has little chance to cool down. The charging profile is also different. The blue Soul EV is charged to 80% and goes down to about 30% before I recharge Maybe once every 3 days. The white Soul EV is charged to 100% every evening.

I don't drive the blue Soul EV down to the bottom of the pack very often. In fact so rarely that I forgot when the low battery warning come on.

I got a battery warning yesterday at 16% I couldn't remember if this was normal. It is.

Range Test results on a brand new 27kWh Soul EV - Kia Soul EV Range Autonomy Demonstration Nets More Than 100 Miles - Video

Image

What did seem unusual was that the energy consumption numbers got reset with the low battery warning.

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The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:56 pm

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My white Soul EV has lost 5% SOH in the last 5 weeks. Now down to 79.8% SOH according to Elmil's formula.
Am wondering if this fast loss will slow down now the summer is over.

Had a look at another way to measure capacity loss. More for fun than accuracy.
My white Soul EV takes 4 hours to fully charge on my home c harger.
My blue Soul EV took 5 hours to fully charge on the same home c harger, when the car was new.

This would imply 80% SOH. But I doubt there's much accuracy in this.
The charging rates are probably not the same. I would expect the smaller battery to heat up faster.
It also might spend far longer balancing the pack.
Maybe that means faster charging, or maybe slower. I don't know. I will have to graph some charging curves.

My blue Soul EV takes 4.5 hours to fully charge. This would imply 90% SOH. whereas the deterioration counters suggest 97%.
It suggests measuring the time it takes to charge it not a good predictor of SOH.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

edatoakrun
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:32 am

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:19 pm

JejuSoul wrote:
My white Soul EV has lost 5% SOH in the last 5 weeks...

What further evidence do you need that relying on the BMS estimate of SOH/capacity is a waste of time?

JejuSoul wrote:
...Had a look at another way to measure capacity loss. More for fun than accuracy...

By comparing the kWh (as determined by an accurate external meter) your pack will accept at standard temperatures and charge rates between fixed SOC levels (generally full charge and full discharge allowed) with reference sources for a new pack (including charge efficiency and the percent of pack accessible) you can make a reasonably accurate estimate of both the accessible and total capacity of your pack at any time.

I was able to track my 2011 LEAF pack capacity in this manner for the last five years, and (happily) learned to ignore the inaccurate BMS readouts.

I expect (at least, I hope) that someone made the same suggestion before over the last 42 pages, sorry I didn't have time to review them all.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:25 am

edatoakrun wrote:...I was able to track my 2011 L eaf pack capacity in this manner for the last five years, and (happily) learned to ignore the inaccurate BMS readouts..
Hi edatoakrun, its been a long time since you last wrote on this forum.
Last time here back in April 2016 you wrote
edatoakrun wrote: ...it seems likely to me that most or all Soul EVs driven in a climate as hot or hotter than Phoenix would qualify for replacement long before 10 years or 100k miles are covered.Depending of course, on how accurately Kia measures battery degradation for warranty purposes.

You were right many Soul EVs in hot climates have already required a new battery.
And it is the BMS readout via an OBD adapter that Kia uses to judge when the battery needs replacing.

Here is an example of a car with a second replacement battery. From Facebook page for Kia Soul EV - Aug 25th 2019
It's in Southern California near San Diego so not quite as hot as Phoenix but nearly.
Jim Robertson wrote:So my range was deteriorating over the summer, took it to Kia to be diagnosed. The SOH was 66%, took 2 days to get approved for battery replacement. I will drop it off Monday. This is the second time I will be getting a new battery. The first was at 50,000 miles along with the on board ch arger and now again at 82,000 miles for just the battery. Mine is a 2015
The 2nd new battery he got may be an upgrade. From Facebook page for Kia Soul EV - Sept 7th 2019
Jim Robertson wrote: I have more range now than ever. A full charge shows 118 mile range, it didn't do that when it was brand new. I'm thinking they put a 30 kwh battery this time instead of the original 27 kwh
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

edatoakrun
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:32 am

Re: Battery Ageing Model

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm

JejuSoul wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:...I was able to track my 2011 L eaf pack capacity in this manner for the last five years, and (happily) learned to ignore the inaccurate BMS readouts..
Hi edatoakrun, its been a long time since you last wrote on this forum...

HI, again.
JejuSoul wrote:Last time here back in April 2016 you wrote
edatoakrun wrote: ...it seems likely to me that most or all Soul EVs driven in a climate as hot or hotter than Phoenix would qualify for replacement long before 10 years or 100k miles are covered.Depending of course, on how accurately Kia measures battery degradation for warranty purposes.

You were right many Soul EVs in hot climates have already required a new battery...

Well, no great credit is due for that prediction.

If you look at the AVTA data up to termination of the testing program, ALL the BEVs being tested looked likely to be headed for early battery failure, when subject to the tortuous test conditions of high ambient temperatures and severe discharge/recharge (for the DC capable BEVs) cycling.

And, to the extent I have been able to discern from anecdotal reports on this and other forums, rapid capacity loss has been the case, irrespective of variations in cell suppliers and thermal management strategies, in those regions with extremely high ambient temperatures like Phoenix.

I'm hopeful that the packs being installed in BEVs today, almost a decade later, are significantly more resistant to degradation from high ambient temperatures and/or the increased cycling required by active thermal management.

But the primary reason I am a lot less worried about my ("40 kWh") 2019 LEAF than my ("24 kWh") 2011 under my own hot seasonal conditions, is that, with a I simply have a much larger margin of capacity to work with.

After eight years of use, my old LEAF had lost between five and six kWh of available capacity (as determined by an external meter) and I could no longer make my >50 mile winter commute (in temps down to 0 C) without a recharge.

If my 2019 LEAF loses only about the same five or six kWh over the next eight years...no big problem.

So I saw no reason to choose a BEV with a pack larger than ~40 kWh, which (unfortunately) meant passing on both the Niro, Soul and Kona, which are currently only available with the larger packs in the USA.

Of course, the costs of batteries were far too high back in 2011 to have allowed a mass-market BEV with a ~40 kWh pack (much less 50 kWh, 60 kWh, or even larger) so kWh hoarding was only an effective hot climate strategy for very expensive BEVs...like Teslas.

JejuSoul wrote:...And it is the BMS readout via an OBD adapter that Kia uses to judge when the battery needs replacing...

I know, but the reason I replied to your post is that your posted results indicated with near-certainty that your BMS could not be relied on, at least in the short term.

I Assume other forum members may have their own reasons to want to know their actual pack capacity, especially those who do not have the BMS reading to qualify for a free replacement pack under warranty.

JejuSoul wrote:...San Diego so not quite as hot as Phoenix but nearly...

Actually, San Diego is probably the most popular vacation destination for those getting out of Phoenix in the Summer.

Some inland areas of SD County are "Hot", in the same sense where I live is "hot" in the Summer but the coastal region (and most of the City itself) are quite moderate, year-round.

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