JejuSoul
Posts: 1657
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Location: Jeju
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Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:44 pm

shumanchu wrote:...Is the BMS firmware different for the different battery chemistries? My '16 Kia Soul EV recently got a 37510-E4200R battery replacement. I noticed that the SOH still reads 68.4%, same as when I brought it in. I assumed that they would need to update the BMS firmware to handle the new chemistry, and that doing so would reset the SOH back to 100 (or 110?) percent...

Yes. Here is a list of the various ROM-IDs for each of the BMS Firmware updates on the original Soul EV.

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This is badly translated from the Korean as is so often the case with Hyundai / Kia.
E4050 - 'Elevated Temp' actually means with Battery Heater.
E4000 - 'Non-Heating' means without Battery Heater.

That you have a 37510-E4200R signifies the new pack has the new cells, has no battery heater and is 're-manufactured'.
What 're-manufactured' means in this case is uncertain. Did they take old cells out of a broken 30kWh car.?
Did they mix and match old and new cells? We don't know yet. We just know there is a big price difference.

Looking at the Kia parts website - Kia Soul EV Re-manufactured Battery (37510-E4250R)
This battery costs $1,609.50 and fits all models both 27kWh and 30kWh.
It is just the cells, they reuse the case and other electronics so this is for cars with and without battery heater.

Looking at the Kia parts website - Kia Soul EV Replacement Battery (37510-E4250)
This battery costs $12,293.25 and fits all models both 27kWh and 30kWh
It is just the cells, they reuse the case and other electronics so this is for cars with and without battery heater.

They add a $2,500USD core charge to both.

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That your SOH hasn't changed shows that they forgot to update the BMS. This is an essential step for non re-manufactured packs.
We don't know the requirements for 're-manufactured' packs. Presumably though it should be the same.
I would take the car back and ask them to update the BMS.
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The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

shumanchu
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:53 am

Ok, from that table it looks like I have probably have BMS ROM ID 5522 and what I need is BMS ROM ID 5722. This information is covered under Kia TSB ELE 155 (upgrade action 379.PS).

Getting this battery replacement has been a nightmare. After 7 weeks with no car, I get my car back with a remanufactured battery instead of new, and with the incorrect BMS firmware to boot. They also left the High Voltage safety disconnect cover open, and there are multiple grease marks in the interior. I'll try to get them to re-flash the BMS to 5722.

After they re-flash, I assume I should do a drive cycle/charge cycle (below 10% SOC and uninterrupted charge back to 100% SOC)?

shumanchu
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:56 pm

So I took my Soul EV into the dealer today finally, and they were able to install the correct 5722 BMS firmware into the car. Took about 1 hour, and they washed my car too!

Now the SOH is 111.5, and the GOM reports 93 miles on a full charge!! I am very happy with that, even though it probably could have been higher if they used a new 37510-E4200 battery instead of the remanufactured one.

I will make another post after a complete < 10% SOC to 100% SOC drive cycle with the recalculated SOH.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:49 pm

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Great that they fixed your car with the proper software.
Your SOH isn't really 111.5%. That is just a fantasy number that pretends to estimate the buffer size. In reality your SOH is probably 100%.
The fantasy number was introduced to take account of the buffer size in the original 27kWh car with the original BMS.
The new BMS has a different algorithm. We don't know how it works.

I assume a brand new battery with a brand new BMS cannot be calibrated further, since by default it is fully calibrated. But am always appreciative of real world data that backs up such assumptions.
The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

IanL
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:57 pm
Location: Jersey, English Channel Islands

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:34 am

Assuming the remanufactured battery has the same cells as the non-R battery, I would expect the performance to be the same. If you have not done much distance yet, the BMS is presumably heavily biased to default value. It will be interesting to see how the GOM changes with use.

shumanchu
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:43 pm

I'll keep posting with new GOM and SOH numbers each time I do a drive cycle. I plan to do one this weekend, so I should have some new numbers on Monday.

Jeju, are you saying that the SOH that I read will never report accurately with the new battery and BMS firmware? Is that because Kia changed the algorithm and now the Soul EV Spy Lite app doesn't know how to calculate it anymore?

JejuSoul
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:28 pm

shumanchu wrote:...Jeju, are you saying that the SOH that I read will never report accurately with the new battery and BMS firmware? Is that because Kia changed the algorithm and now the Soul EV Spy Lite app doesn't know how to calculate it anymore?

For the first few years yes. Given that the Soul EV Spy Lite app will never be updated, it will always assume you have an original BMS.
The simplest guess on how the new BMS behaves would be to assume it is like the BMS in the 30kWh Soul EV which always shows SOH = 100% until after the 'early-years' buffer has been lost. After that it is unknown. Maybe it will work, maybe not. I estimate it will be 3 more years until we know.
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The latest data from my car after 19 months, 22,000km

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The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

IanL
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:57 pm
Location: Jersey, English Channel Islands

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:21 pm

With my 30kWh model, the current version of the Soul EVSpy paid-for app gets the SOH from the BMS, rather than calculating it from Max Det and Min Det like Torque does. If the 5722 firmware is similar, it may be worth upgrading to the paid-for version to be able to read the value from the BMS. I'm not sure of it always has done that, but it now states the source of the SOH (implying that some other source may be possible), so at least you would know the origin of what is being displayed.

JejuSoul
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am
Location: Jeju
Contact: Website

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:05 am

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SoulEVSpy knows nothing about what firmware the car has had applied.
The current version of the Soul EVSpy paid-for app shows a fantasy number for SOH exactly the same as mentioned above.
Presumably all the other apps will do the same. I'll post below when I have a screenshot.

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The codes for using Torque Pro can be found by clicking the link in the website icon under my user name on the left.

shumanchu
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: Analysis of a replacement battery.

Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:00 am

IanL wrote:With my 30kWh model, the current version of the Soul EVSpy paid-for app gets the SOH from the BMS, rather than calculating it from Max Det and Min Det like Torque does. If the 5722 firmware is similar, it may be worth upgrading to the paid-for version to be able to read the value from the BMS. I'm not sure of it always has done that, but it now states the source of the SOH (implying that some other source may be possible), so at least you would know the origin of what is being displayed.


Can you post a screenshot of your Soul EVspy app that shows "Battery SOH Source" is something other than "Calculated from BMS min/max deterioration"? Or just type in what it says, I don't really need a screen shot.

If the new 5722 BMS firmware has SOH as a OBD2 PID, that is, calculated by the BMS and reported like any other PID, then we could probably work out which PID it is and put that into Torque to read out the SOH. I'd also really like to work out how to read the BMS ROM ID over OBD2.

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