Battery Recall for cars with E400 high-voltage battery.

[Locuturus]

When I had the battery replaced on my 2016 Soul EV the invoice listed the price as just under $9000. Is the $15000 in Canadian dollars?

They didn't put the price on mine (also 2016 Soul EV). Though I googled the part # (that JejuSoul identified from my paperwork) and it says reman batteries are 1500 USD, and new batteries are 15000 USD. The guy at Kia Vancouver said that a brand new battery lists on their systems at 17,000 CAD... though they didn't hear anything about buybacks(?) maybe it's a regional thing?

 

[kimdavi]

A couple of details about the second BMS upgrade for this recall that fixed the first 'limp mode' upgrade.
They asked that the car be charged to 80% before I brought it in.
The update took about 5 minutes.
The service guy showed the tablet screen showing the diagnosis.
It shows the Voltage Deviation at 0.1V. This is a pass.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 1.4V
( I have no idea how this test would distinguish between a degraded battery and a fire-risk battery - maybe it doesn't. )
The car has been running fine for a week since the upgrade. No more limp mode.

View attachment 82

Is there a way to check BMS version installed? Perhaps getting in to "Engineering Mode" by tapping multiple times on the screen.

 

[pgeller]

A couple of details about the second BMS upgrade for this recall that fixed the first 'limp mode' upgrade.
They asked that the car be charged to 80% before I brought it in.
The update took about 5 minutes.
The service guy showed the tablet screen showing the diagnosis.
It shows the Voltage Deviation at 0.1V. This is a pass.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 1.4V
( I have no idea how this test would distinguish between a degraded battery and a fire-risk battery - maybe it doesn't. )
The car has been running fine for a week since the upgrade. No more limp mode.

View attachment 82

Is it still alive?

 

[kimdavi]

A couple of details about the second BMS upgrade for this recall that fixed the first 'limp mode' upgrade.
They asked that the car be charged to 80% before I brought it in.
The update took about 5 minutes.
The service guy showed the tablet screen showing the diagnosis.
It shows the Voltage Deviation at 0.1V. This is a pass.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 1.4V
( I have no idea how this test would distinguish between a degraded battery and a fire-risk battery - maybe it doesn't. )
The car has been running fine for a week since the upgrade. No more limp mode.

I'm sharing the battery cell voltages (using Soul Spy) that I observed today on the replacement battery installed on October 31, 2023. Following Kia's BMS update on my 2015 Kia Soul EV, it triggered the power-limp mode. Despite getting approval and receiving a battery replacement, I faced the power-limp mode issue once more. It's now been 4 months since the battery replacement, and I'm still stuck in this mode. Argh!

 

[andrew1joe]

I'm sharing the battery cell voltages (using Soul Spy) that I observed today on the replacement battery installed on October 31, 2023. Following Kia's BMS update on my 2015 Kia Soul EV, it triggered the power-limp mode. Despite getting approval and receiving a battery replacement, I faced the power-limp mode issue once more. It's now been 4 months since the battery replacement, and I'm still stuck in this mode. Argh!

Wow that is a degraded battery! I guess they replaced your pack with a reassembled one?

 

[Nedhastings]

Has anyone besides JejuSoul gotten the updated software? My dealership doesn’t seem to know anything about it. I dont like paying for gas in my rental.

 

[kimdavi]

Wow that is a degraded battery! I guess they replaced your pack with a reassembled one?

Based on the Soul Spy State of Health (SOH) reading on this replacement battery pack, it indicates an impressive 111.5%! To evaluate its performance, I conducted a range test starting from 80% (charge capacity limited due to triggering BMS warning for abnormal cell voltages) down to 4%, and I achieved a distance of 100.1 miles.

 

[pgeller]

Based on the Soul Spy State of Health (SOH) reading on this replacement battery pack, it indicates an impressive 111.5%! To evaluate its performance, I conducted a range test starting from 80% (charge capacity limited due to triggering BMS warning for abnormal cell voltages) down to 4%, and I achieved a distance of 100.1 miles.

Interesting numbers. Big cell voltage deltas yet SOH over 100% seems odd. Are you still stuck in limp home (turtle) mode? What kind of acceleration and speed restrictions are you seeing?

My son’s 2016 is living at the dealership (Beaverton Kia, great folks there) this year awaiting some kind of resolution. It. After the BMS update it never cleared the launch pad.

Thanks for the info!

pg

 

[kimdavi]

Interesting numbers. Big cell voltage deltas yet SOH over 100% seems odd. Are you still stuck in limp home (turtle) mode? What kind of acceleration and speed restrictions are you seeing?

My son’s 2016 is living at the dealership (Beaverton Kia, great folks there) this year awaiting some kind of resolution. It. After the BMS update it never cleared the launch pad.

Thanks for the info!

pg

Yes, I'm still in power-limited mode. Acceleration is extremely slow, especially going up a slight hill. No limit on speed, I've taken the car up to 56mph.
This is the replacement battery Kia installed post BMS update and triggering battery fault condition.

Also, I think the SOH value 111.5 is wrong, I'm thinking it's more likely 111.5 x .80 = 89.0. The current BMS restriction, capping maximum charging at 80%, could potentially be causing discrepancies in Soul SPY's State of Health (SOH) calculations.

 

[kimdavi]

Today, I wanted to evaluate the replacement battery pack that Kia installed on 10/31/2023 to resolve the power-limp mode warnings following the BMS update. Using Soul SPY, I compared the battery cell map readings at both 4% state of charge and maximum state of charge, the latter of which was limited to 80% due to triggering the BMS battery fault.

At first, the variance between the maximum and minimum cell voltage was 0.18 volts at 4% charge, but this discrepancy grew to 0.28 volts at 80% charge. This notable voltage difference points to irregular cell voltages, persistently triggering the Battery Management System (BMS) to enter power-limp mode once more.

 

[andrew1joe]

Today, I wanted to evaluate the replacement battery pack that Kia installed on 10/31/2023 to resolve the power-limp mode warnings following the BMS update. Using Soul SPY, I compared the battery cell map readings at both 4% state of charge and maximum state of charge, the latter of which was limited to 80% due to triggering the BMS battery fault.

At first, the variance between the maximum and minimum cell voltage was 0.18 volts at 4% charge, but this discrepancy grew to 0.28 volts at 80% charge. This notable voltage difference points to irregular cell voltages, persistently triggering the Battery Management System (BMS) to enter power-limp mode once more.

Interesting. Explains why Kia wants people to charge their car to 80% before brining in their car for battery check.

 

[andrew1joe]

Based on the Soul Spy State of Health (SOH) reading on this replacement battery pack, it indicates an impressive 111.5%! To evaluate its performance, I conducted a range test starting from 80% (charge capacity limited due to triggering BMS warning for abnormal cell voltages) down to 4%, and I achieved a distance of 100.1 miles.

Well with limp mode you are basically doing extreme hypermiling so you’ll get really impressive distance (see pic) I suspect SOH is not working for some reason.

 

[JejuSoul]

kimdavi : that's a really large cell deviation for a battery that is only 4 months old. (0.28 volts at 80% charge)
My car's battery was changed 4 1/4 years ago and the variance between the maximum and minimum cell voltage was 0.10 volts.
From your range data I'm guessing that your usable capacity is still 100% of new, ie no degradation.
Hence the problem is not that the cells are degraded, it is the fact that they are not all the same.

The SOH number provided by any app other than Kia's official GDS will be nonsense. We do not have any knowledge of what the latest BMS algorithm is doing.

If I were you I would try trickle charging. Charge at a lower current for longer. Circumstantial evidence suggests this balances the cells much better than a standard L2 charge.

 

[andrew1joe]

Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here's the voltage vs SoC I measured when my Kia Soul 2018 was new. Data was taken after letting the battery voltage settle for at least 30 minutes after driving or charging. I'm missing data below 9% because I was babying the car back then and rarely let it fall below 10%.

SoC %	Voltage
9.0%	3.406
11.0%	3.428
13.0%	3.440
15.0%	3.464
17.0%	3.474
19.0%	3.491
20.5%	3.507
25.0%	3.543
27.0%	3.555
29.5%	3.570
30.5%	3.576
33.0%	3.588
35.0%	3.598
37.5%	3.603
38.5%	3.609
41.5%	3.619
45.5%	3.631
46.5%	3.635
47.5%	3.634
48.5%	3.646
50.0%	3.652
51.0%	3.656
52.5%	3.657
54.5%	3.666
56.0%	3.672
56.5%	3.677
58.0%	3.689
59.0%	3.709
60.0%	3.702
61.0%	3.709
63.5%	3.715
67.0%	3.760
67.5%	3.779
70.5%	3.796
71.5%	3.816
72.5%	3.821
73.5%	3.849
75.5%	3.857
79.0%	3.905
79.5%	3.906
80.5%	3.918
82.5%	3.955
84.0%	3.957
85.0%	3.932
86.5%	3.945
87.5%	3.965
90.0%	4.024
92.5%	4.012
94.0%	4.023
96.0%	4.080
98.0%	4.086
99.0%	4.102
99.5%	4.123

 

[JejuSoul]

For the original 27kWh pack we have the AVTA site laboratory data. - ( this site was taken down by the Trump administration a few weeks after taking power. in early 2017 )

Total Energy Capacity in kWh = Nominal Voltage * Total Capacity Ah = 360 * 85 = 30.6 kWh
Usable Energy Capacity in kWh = Nominal Voltage * Usable Capacity Ah= 360 * 75 / 1000 = 27 kWh

From the Battery Pack Laboratory Testing Results we can see that as the pack approaches empty (the last 10%), the available energy left in the pack drops quickly.



The picture above is a lab test of the full pack. Presumably bypassing the BMS which only allows access to the usable portion of the pack.
The full pack has a voltage range from 225V to 415V. Cell Voltages from 2.3V to 4.3V
The usable pack has a voltage range from 297V to 398V. Cell Voltages from 3..09V to 4.14V

As you can see the voltage range for the 30kWh pack is the same. Different capacity though because there are 100 cell pairs not 96.

The voltages we see on Kimdavi's car at 80% SOC are bizarre. Most are at 3.90V which is correct, but a few are at 4.18V.
Surely when these re-manufactured packs are assembled they check that the cell capacities are similar. But it seems not.

 

[pgeller]

kimdavi : that's a really large cell deviation for a battery that is only 4 months old. (0.28 volts at 80% charge)
My car's battery was changed 4 1/4 years ago and the variance between the maximum and minimum cell voltage was 0.10 volts.
From your range data I'm guessing that your usable capacity is still 100% of new, ie no degradation.
Hence the problem is not that the cells are degraded, it is the fact that they are not all the same.

The SOH number provided by any app other than Kia's official GDS will be nonsense. We do not have any knowledge of what the latest BMS algorithm is doing.

If I were you I would try trickle charging. Charge at a lower current for longer. Circumstantial evidence suggests this balances the cells much better than a standard L2 charge.

I agree, try trickle charging to 100% and leave it going for as many hours as you can. I've read that balancing works best when the battery is allowed to fully charge. Some good data showing upon here. We're all going to be experts soon. Maybe we can have a turtle-mode drag race!

 

[gnad]

Hi all,

Couple of questions.

If a car is eligible for the recall and it's a 2017 does that mean it had the battery replaced?

Has anyone else gotten a replacement pack because of this recall? Was it easy or difficult? Is it rare for this to result in a replacement?

Thanks in advance,

Yes, I got a replacement from the recall, and now it is back in the shop for the last 3 months. Mine's a 2017 as well.

 

[uspurs]

I agree, try trickle charging to 100% and leave it going for as many hours as you can. I've read that balancing works best when the battery is allowed to fully charge. Some good data showing upon here. We're all going to be experts soon. Maybe we can have a turtle-mode drag race!

Or get jobs with Kia

 

[ksoul2084]

I am learning that it is best to not give KIA any benefit of the doubt. I believe in my car they used a refurbished pack because it was close to being off-warranty due to mileage and thus it made no sense for them to invest in a new pack when battery degradation below 70% wouldn't be their problem soon enough (I was within 10,000km or so of being off warranty).

It was only with this subsequent fire-related issue and recall that they find themselves having to support their refurbished packs for the long-haul. The other X factor here is that the battery packs may be provided by their supplier, and thus perhaps KIA isn't the one doing the refurbishing, etc. at all.

 

[kimdavi]

I agree, try trickle charging to 100% and leave it going for as many hours as you can. I've read that balancing works best when the battery is allowed to fully charge. Some good data showing upon here. We're all going to be experts soon. Maybe we can have a turtle-mode drag race!

Thanks for the suggestion, I will do that and retake cell voltage readings to see if there is any improvement.
My sole chance of exiting power-limp mode is to strive to balance cell voltages, ensuring they differ by no more than 0.14 volts.