Battery Recall for cars with E400 high-voltage battery.

[kimdavi]

Spoke to Kia Service today. After sitting for several days in their shop, they finally started my car to investigate post-recall BMS EV warnings. Unfortunately, they did not get the EV warning or turtle mode. The day before I brought it in, it was consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode. Uncertain why the warning is not occurring after several days.

Service asked my permission which I granted to take my car to tech's home over the weekend. They will keep test equipment in the car in case the warnings return to investigate further.

 

[IanL]

With EVs, it is not unknown that a crop of faults just clear themselves after the car has had a rest, or even when driving it. The most likely cause, in my opinion, is an instability in the power to the relevant processor, which just "goes away". Very unsatisfactory, but that's life.

 

[ksoul2084]

Spoke to Kia Service today. After sitting for several days in their shop, they finally started my car to investigate post-recall BMS EV warnings. Unfortunately, they did not get the EV warning or turtle mode. The day before I brought it in, it was consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode. Uncertain why the warning is not occurring after several days.

Service asked my permission which I granted to take my car to tech's home over the weekend. They will keep test equipment in the car in case the warnings return to investigate further.

Certainly this type of warning would have created codes that the can read with their code scanner? I don't understand why they need to reproduce this at all.

 

[IanL]

Certainly this type of warning would have created codes that the can read with their code scanner? I don't understand why they need to reproduce this at all.

I had a recurring fault which I managed to get to show the tech at my dealer. He plugged in his diagnostic pad and it specified the valve in the climate system which was at fault. He told me to make an appointment to have it fixed, and I asked what would happen if the fault was not showing when I returned. He said it was no problem, as his pad had already logged the fault on the KIA corporate servers.

Despite that, when I returned, they said they could do nothing, as the fault was not showing. I went back to the car, started it and pressed the heater button. The fault returned, so I got them to call the tech back, and he plugged in and got the same diagnosis. This time he took a photo of the pad with his phone, so I assume he anticipated more reluctance from KIA corporate.

Long story short, he ordered up the valve, changed it, and the fault has not returned. But, sometime later, when the weather got hot, I found the aircon not working. They tried to tell me it was probably a leak, but I argued that the most likely cause was a consequence of the valve change. They recharged the system (it took a lot of refrigerant, so it had been well down), tested extensively for a leak and couldn't find one, and eventually admitted the most likely cause was that they had not fully recharged the system after the valve change.

Clearly, not all indicated faults are logged in the car's memory, and even faults that are diagosed with the KIA equipment are considered ephemeral if the indication does not persist.

 

[ksoul2084]

Certainly this type of warning would have created codes that the can read with their code scanner? I don't understand why they need to reproduce this at all.

I had a recurring fault which I managed to get to show the tech at my dealer. He plugged in his diagnostic pad and it specified the valve in the climate system which was at fault. He told me to make an appointment to have it fixed, and I asked what would happen if the fault was not showing when I returned. He said it was no problem, as his pad had already logged the fault on the KIA corporate servers.

Despite that, when I returned, they said they could do nothing, as the fault was not showing. I went back to the car, started it and pressed the heater button. The fault returned, so I got them to call the tech back, and he plugged in and got the same diagnosis. This time he took a photo of the pad with his phone, so I assume he anticipated more reluctance from KIA corporate.

Long story short, he ordered up the valve, changed it, and the fault has not returned. But, sometime later, when the weather got hot, I found the aircon not working. They tried to tell me it was probably a leak, but I argued that the most likely cause was a consequence of the valve change. They recharged the system (it took a lot of refrigerant, so it had been well down), tested extensively for a leak and couldn't find one, and eventually admitted the most likely cause was that they had not fully recharged the system after the valve change.

Clearly, not all indicated faults are logged in the car's memory, and even faults that are diagosed with the KIA equipment are considered ephemeral if the indication does not persist.

This reflects my own service experiences with several different KIA dealerships over the last 4 years. Disappointing at best. They have zero respect or consideration of your time. And as you've experienced, will default to trying to avoid an obvious warranty issue and force you to persevere to get it dealt with. For this reason, I would be unlikely to purchase another KIA.

Decades of dealing with Toyota and Honda dealers have not been nearly as trying.

 

[JejuSoul]

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I took the car to Kia for the recall today. They replaced the BMS together with a new wiring harness.
It took 3 hours. The new software hasn't triggered a warning.




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... After sitting for several days in their shop, they finally started my car to investigate post-recall BMS EV warnings. Unfortunately, they did not get the EV warning or turtle mode. The day before I brought it in, it was consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode. Uncertain why the warning is not occurring after several days. ..

The way I read your comment 'consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode' is that the warning mode was not constant. Could you explain what happened when you drove to the service. For instance it goes into turtle mode after 5 minutes of normal use, but when restarted it works normally for a while.

This behaviour is not what I expected. If there is a serious problem it should be flagged permanently. It seems they have just installed software that limits the car only at the times when a voltage fault is occurring. I hope this isn't the case.

The worst scenario would be something like it goes into turtle mode every time you drive fast on a warm day, but you never get a replacement battery because there is no problem the next day when you drive slowly to have it checked at the service - because the battery isn't as hot as it was the day before..

 

[Nedhastings]

I got the ev warning/limp home mode today about a month since my recall repair. I have an appointment for service tomorrow. I really hope the car shows the dealer the warning, after all the drama today.

Honestly if it wasn’t for the fire danger, I would be happy to keep this battery. It was a replacement for the original, which didn’t hold its charge so well. On the other hand, the original didn’t threaten to catch fire.

 

[kimdavi]

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I took the car to Kia for the recall today. They replaced the BMS together with a new wiring harness.
It took 3 hours. The new software hasn't triggered a warning.




----------------------------------------------------------------------

... After sitting for several days in their shop, they finally started my car to investigate post-recall BMS EV warnings. Unfortunately, they did not get the EV warning or turtle mode. The day before I brought it in, it was consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode. Uncertain why the warning is not occurring after several days. ..

The way I read your comment 'consistently going into the abnormal battery warning mode' is that the warning mode was not constant. Could you explain what happened when you drove to the service. For instance it goes into turtle mode after 5 minutes of normal use, but when restarted it works normally for a while.

Once BMS warning mode is triggered it remains on constantly, it never turned off while driving to Kia Service.

 

[kimdavi]

My experience with Kia's Battery Recall service has been nothing short of abysmal. Despite returning twice after triggering the abnormal battery cell condition, they've consistently delayed and denied the presence of any issue. I'm now inclined to believe this could be attributed to either a lack of expertise on the dealership's part, as they are relatively new to servicing EVs, or it might be an intentional strategy to evade replacing EV batteries.

 

[Lithium]

My experience with Kia's Battery Recall service has been nothing short of abysmal. Despite returning twice after triggering the abnormal battery cell condition, I have found Kia's service to be uncooperative, persistently denying the existence of any issue. I am beginning to suspect that this may not be mere oversight, but rather an intentional strategy. It's possible that Kia Corporate is instructing their service department to delay and deny any abnormal battery issue exists due to substantial replacement cost they would incur and the ongoing battery shortages.

So you believe your Kia Soul burning down your house, injuring someone, Brand affecting tragedy is the way Kia wants to go? Ya, no. The Replacement cost to Kia is chump change. Annoying and a red mark, but peanuts to what they actually make. The issue is likely logistics and supply chain.
When you say Kia's service, you mean the dealer? Dealerships go from competent to incompetent and everything in between.

I have the recall. A phone call triggered ordering the parts they need. BMS harness etc, Once arrived, dropping car off to them and then doing the repair. Should the new BMS trigger the warning as yours has, the next step will be the Dealer reaching out to Kia Corp to approve and send a new pack. Packs are made in batches and can be 2-3 months out.
Your situation is unfortunate. You can try a different Dealer if you feel they don't seem to understand your issue.

 

[RubberToe]

Our 2015 Kia Soul EV had it's first large battery replacement back in 2019, after about 35,000 miles. Just heard back from the dealership that the large battery needs replacing again, currently at 70,000 miles. This is apparently going to take one month.

Here is my question: What is the cost to Kia for a replacement battery? The battery replacement thread by Kish has a post showing $15,586 as the part cost. And a separate web search shows about $16,000.

I'm going to ask the dealer or corporate if they want to consider just buying the car back from me versus forking over $16,000+ to replace the battery. You would think that they would jump at the change to do that, for say $5,000. I can lease a brand new Kia Niro EV for a total out of pocket cost of about $400 per month for 3 years, or $14,400. The gas savings per month are $160, bringing the $14,400 down to $8,640. If Kia buys my 2015 Soul EV for $5,000, then my 3 year lease cost drops down to $3,640. If they buy my car for $8,640 then the new Niro lease costs me essentially nothing.

At the end of 3 years, I'm assuming the replaced battery for the 2015 Soul will be dead again, so the car would be worthless. At the end of a 3 year lease on a new Niro EV, I given them the car back and am also without a car. No difference between the two outcomes.

This seems like a win/win for both Kia and myself if they buy my car back versus replacing a very expensive battery. What am I missing here?

RubberToe

 

[JejuSoul]

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This latest post has nothing to do with the battery recall, but the cost issue may well be similar for standard battery replacement under warranty as for this safety issue battery recall. Kia is sucking up a massive loss on these old 27kWh EV's so as not to damage future sales and marketing of their future EVs.

'Common Sense' says yes. It would be far cheaper for them to scrap this car than replace the battery again.

BUT.

The dealer makes money on the work. They get the money from Kia.
Kia (US) is also unlikely to be paying the cost of the new battery.
More likely the money comes from either Kia ( Head Office in South Korea ) , SK Innovation ( the battery manufacturer ) or an Insurance company that provides cover to Kia for all warranty work.

More importantly outside of the financial cost they will be keen not to set a precedent.

 

[RubberToe]

Amazingly enough, we got the car back yesterday with what the dealer said was a re-manufactured replacement battery. Could be that they are using older batteries that have been disassembled with the still viable modules (?) being used to replace bad ones in the failed packs. Seems like for such a low production run of vehicles that are now almost ten years old, that makes sense if that is what they are doing, versus trying to manufacture a battery design that is no doubt obsolete.

RT

 

[JejuSoul]

Amazingly enough, we got the car back yesterday with what the dealer said was a re-manufactured replacement battery. Could be that they are using older batteries that have been disassembled with the still viable modules (?) being used to replace bad ones in the failed packs. Seems like for such a low production run of vehicles that are now almost ten years old, that makes sense if that is what they are doing, versus trying to manufacture a battery design that is no doubt obsolete.
RT

Great, am glad you got a replacement so quickly.

We have no idea what exactly the re-manufactured pack contains.
Initially I too assumed they were using older batteries ( E375 cells) that have been disassembled from still viable but scrapped packs.
But then we see on this thread that many re-manufactured packs are included in the E400 recall.
Hence I thought the re-manufactured packs must contain the newer cells.
But this assumption may be wrong.

Your post makes me realise that Kia may also not know what exactly each re-manufactured pack contains.
Hence all cars with replacement packs are being recalled regardless of what cells may or may not be inside.

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[ksoul2084]

I had my recall completed on my 2016 Soul EV Luxury (+) yesterday. The KIA dealer kept my vehicle overnight to complete the job.
The work order says they replaced the BMS, 2 different wiring harnesses, and reprogrammed the OBC.

When I received the car it was charged to 80%, but showed 122km on the guess-o-meter. Before this work, my range at 80% would have been approx. 96km. Nothing else changed in terms of my kwH consumption, etc. so not sure why the estimate range has jumped so much.

I did have my battery reconditioned a couple of years ago under warranty.

So as a follow-up, my car is still accurately estimating approx. 9% higher range at partial (80%) charge than it did before the BMS replacement. I have discovered that when I time-charge it to 80% overnight, it is now charging to 85% and not 80%, at least according to the dash battery charge display, which also jives with why I'm getting a higher range from the partial charge. Note that the config panel for the timed charging still indicates it will charge to "80%". I'm assuming this must have been an intentional design change in the new BMS software, and I'll gladly take it as 85% seems perfectly safe for the battery while offering slightly better range.

Has anyone else experienced this increase to 85% partial charging?

 

[spike]

My 2015 was recalled and the dealer upgraded the battery management system which cause my range to increase from 85 miles to 125 miles. Very nice! But 45 days later, my service warning light and power down warning light have come on and are staying on. I guess I need to take it back in. Has this happened with anyone else?

 

[ksoul2084]

My 2015 was recalled and the dealer upgraded the battery management system which cause my range to increase from 85 miles to 125 miles. Very nice! But 45 days later, my service warning light and power down warning light have come on and are staying on. I guess I need to take it back in. Has this happened with anyone else?

From what I understand, that would indicate that your battery is susceptible to the fire condition and will be replaced (under warranty) by KIA.

 

[JejuSoul]

...Has anyone else experienced this increase to 85% partial charging?

Yes. My car now charges to 83% SOH overnight when the timer on the navi computer is set for 80%.
This is new. It must have come with the recent BMS hardware / software upgrade.
Note - this is about slow charging - I haven't fast charged the car since getting the recall.

I have a 2015 car with 96 E400 cells.
Am guessing that the new BMS hardware / software replicates the hardware in the MY 2017 cars.
These have 100 E400 cells.
The guessing continues with my assumption that the BMS timer function is hardwired to calculate the 80% time using 100 cells not 96.
The rest of the BMS software is using the real values.
Hence a disparity between the imagined 80% SOH and the actual 83% when using the timer .

Your guess that this is an intentional design change is equally possible.
We'll know more in a few years as the cells degrade. If I'm right presumably this discrepancy will change over time.

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[ksoul2084]

...Has anyone else experienced this increase to 85% partial charging?

Yes. My car now charges to 83% SOH overnight when the timer on the navi computer is set for 80%.
This is new. It must have come with the recent BMS hardware / software upgrade.
Note - this is about slow charging - I haven't fast charged the car since getting the recall.

I have a 2015 car with 96 E400 cells.
Am guessing that the new BMS hardware / software replicates the hardware in the MY 2017 cars.
These have 100 E400 cells.
The guessing continues with my assumption that the BMS timer function is hardwired to calculate the 80% time using 100 cells not 96.
The rest of the BMS software is using the real values.
Hence a disparity between the imagined 80% SOH and the actual 83% when using the timer .

Your guess that this is an intentional design change is equally possible.
We'll know more in a few years as the cells degrade. If I'm right presumably this discrepancy will change over time.

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Yes, you are right, 83%. Your explanation makes sense.

 

[mariano3113]

My 2015 was recalled and the dealer upgraded the battery management system which cause my range to increase from 85 miles to 125 miles. Very nice! But 45 days later, my service warning light and power down warning light have come on and are staying on. I guess I need to take it back in. Has this happened with anyone else?

Long story short:
My 110499 mile 2015 Soul EV gave High Voltage warning and powered down (turtle mode max of 26mph) today at 94 miles remaining indicated range 81% ...13 miles driven.


Full story:
My battery was initially replaced at 36k miles on 1/14/2019
https://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8823#p8823

October 12, 2022
The vehicle was at 36 miles remaining around 40% indicated state of charge and died crossing an intersection.
(Vehicle would not initiate 120V charge and was towed to Mark Kia)
They also couldn't get vehicle to initiate charge using 120 Volt nor 240 Volt; until they reflashed the BMS.
Come January 6th, 2023
Vehicle would not charge via J1772 port again...but would DC charge via CHAdeMO...this at 99940 miles. Drove to Mark Kia whom replaced the OBC (I had the on-board charger replaced twice before so. Including the original OBC...I was getting my fourth. OBC stopped taking a charge once before and then the OBC got replaced again on Paperwork when my drive-unit was replaced under warranty for an oil leak.)*

Nov 22 2023 my Lightning Pro came in at San Tan Ford and I dropped the Soul EV off nextdoor at Horne Kia for the Recall Battery work and a new Driver-side mirror (stopped folding in as the motor went bad). 110402 miles when it went in ....110405 miles when it came back on 12/8/2023.
(Recall work required:
37561-E4210QQK Wiring Harness - Volt
37561-E4220QQK Wiring Harness - VOLT
37513-E4201QQK Battery Management S

Took 7 days for parts to come-in before the BMS could be flashed according to my service representative at Horne Kia.)

Put about 95 miles on it in the last week, no longer use it for 150+mile days as the Lightning & Bolt better serves those needs. The Soul EV has been relegated to around town errands.

Today left house ambient temperature of 49°F with 100% indicated state of charge at 112 miles of range.
When driving 55 mph on Riggs Rd approaching SR347 intersection...vehicle gave HV System warning & Turtle mode reduced power and then began decelerating. When I noticed the reduced power was not going to let me maintain speed above 45mph I pulled off the road onto the shoulder.

When traffic was clear I accelerated to see how reduced the power was and to also make it to a better location (wider shoulder). That is when I found out it was 26mph restriction at the time and proceeded to call Tow truck.

I am pretty sure the Battery will end up getting replaced ...again.

I have not had the best Track record with my Soul EV and Bolt, both getting replacement batteries.
Lightning was produced after they halted production for a Battery issue, so hoping to be in the clear. (Sk innovation for Soul EV & Lightning; LG Chem for Bolt)

Have a Telo MT1 reservation and looking to reserve Lucid Gravity.

Just need the Soul to last me until 150,000 mile extended warranty and/or 2025 when NACS Telo or Lucid Gravity can utilize Supercharger network. (Ford's Farley promised NACS adapter to CCS owners, so hopefully that pans-out.)

I will update with outcome of HV warning and Turle mode post-recall update.