Battery Recall for cars with E400 high-voltage battery.

[IanL]

68% is the BMS SoC which tracks how much usable capacity your battery pack has remaining. Display SoC will always show 100% at full charge as it scale the BMS SoC. For example, at ~34% BMS SoC, your Display SoC will show 50%, etc. It looks like your battery pack is failing fast if it dropped from 74% not that long ago - it won't be long before it's in the shop again for a battery replacement.

If the BMS SOC shown by Car Scanner shows how much of the original capacity is remaining, it seems to me to be identical to the SOH. If I'm wrong I'd like to know why.

 

[andrew1joe]

You are close IanL but BMS SoC and SoH differ in three ways:

1. They will only be similar at 100% display SoC. As you use energy, SoH will stay the same while BMS SoC will decrease based on lowest cell voltage.
2. BMS SoC will be lower than 100% in most cars with top buffer. Eg if BMS artificially limits cells to 4.15v instead of 4.2v, BMS SoC may top out at 96% (100% - 0.05v/1.2v). SoH scales to 100% including the top buffer or in my 2018 case, it scaled to 110% when the car was new - it dependent on how each car manufacturer programs it. SoH changes as the cells degrade (see #3 below).
3. BMS SoC shows number based on lowest cell voltage. SoH is determined over the long term when you cycle the battery semi-fully depleting and recharging the battery. It's based on actual energy input and output measured through the shunt throughout the voltage range of the cells. Take lead acid battery capacity test as an example - at 100%, it may measure healthy at resting voltage but only have half the amp hours capacity when you try to actually use the battery - that's what SoH measure.

 

[IanL]

Thanks andrew1joe, that makes it much clearer. I'll take note of the values next time I charge to 100%.

 

[JejuSoul]

andrew1joe : your theory does not match reality. Try reading through some of the longer threads on this forum for example the soulspy thread and then explain data such as this. see -Soul Spy?

Here are my numbers at 100% charged
battery.SOC_precise_pt 63.082
battery.SOC_pct 95
battery.SOC_display_pct
battery.available_charge_power_kW 69.69
battery.available_disharge_power_kW 90
battery.max_cell_detoriation_pct 36
battery.min_cell_detoriation_pct 22.1

 

[andrew1joe]

JejuSoul, sorry I'm not as familiar with SoulSpy. For the example you posted above, do you have the mapping to PIDs and the equations used? Also does "SOC_precise_pt" map to BMS SoC and "SOC_pct" map to Display SoC or is that "SOC_display_pct" which is empty?

 

[IanL]

The author of SoulSpy told me he did not know what the parameters SOC_precise_pct and SOC_pct were, and he assigned the names by guesswork. From recent discussion (see post #214) it appears that SOC_pct is BMS SoC, SOC_display_pct is what the dash says, and SOC_precise_pct is unknown.

My current data is:
SOC_display_pct 81.5 (the dash shows 81)
SOC_pct 77.5
SOC_precise_pct 90.824219
battery.available_charge_power_kW 70.18
battery.available_discharge_power_kW 90
battery.max_cell_detoriation_pct not shown on 2018 model readout
battery.min_cell_detoriation_pct not shown on 2018 model readout

All cells show 3.9V
battery_max_cell_SOH_pct 0
battery_min_cell_SOH_pct 100


Mine is a 2018 model, so SoulSpy reads the SOH from the BMS and shows SOH 100%. My own computation from records of mileage, m/kWh and displayed SoC before and after charging suggests it is about 101 to 102%. ( I assume the BMS does not provide values in excess of 100%).

 

[JejuSoul]

Thanks Ian.

On the 2018 SoulSpy has changed the names
battery.max_cell_detoriation_pct to battery_max_cell_SOH_pct
battery.min_cell_detoriation_pct to battery_min_cell_SOH_pct

These are the same PIDs as the earlier model but have a different meaning.
Before they used to show the deterioration from usable capacity plus early-years buffer. The safety buffer is never lost and never shown by the BMS.
SOH is measured against usable capacity which enabled a calculation to be made.
100% of usable capacity + 10% of early-years buffer = 110%
It's a bit silly to use percentages greater than 100% but it does help accurately plot a graph to estimate when you'd reach 70%

The 2018 PIDs never showed this. Nor do the PIDs of any 27kWh car that has had a replacement battery with E400 cells with an updated BMS. I have no idea what the new values actually show.

 

[kimdavi]

I want to keep this thread going. On March 4, 2024, when picking up my Kia Soul, the service manager informed me that Kia is currently investigating defective BMS harness connectors as a potential cause of numerous failures that occurred after the BMS recall update. Initially, we all presumed that the failure warnings stemmed from bad batteries or BMS software errors; however, I heard no one discuss BMS temperature harnesses which were part of the recall installation.

 

[JejuSoul]

Why do you mention BMS temperature harnesses?
We have always talked about this as a voltage issue.
The original wiring harness connected to 96 voltage sensors and 8 temperature sensors.
Do you know how the updated harness is different?

My car has an updated harness and has had a BMS software fix. It works fine.
I don't know why the BMS software fix is not applied in North America.

The original cabling was made by Yura a company in South Korea.
Yura : Eco-Friendly Automotive Components

 

[kimdavi]

Why do you mention BMS temperature harnesses?
We have always talked about this as a voltage issue.
The original wiring harness connected to 96 voltage sensors and 8 temperature sensors.
Do you know how the updated harness is different?

My car has an updated harness and has had a BMS software fix. It works fine.
I don't know why the BMS software fix is not applied in North America.

The original cabling was made by Yura a company in South Korea.
Yura : Eco-Friendly Automotive Components

North America Kia Service has no knowledge of a BMS software "Fix". You apparently are the only one that has reported this. I'm not sure how the new harnesses differ from the original. The Service Manager suggested that the updated BMS harness connectors might be at fault, leading to the problem. He mentioned that Kia engineers are looking into it.

If you have contacts at Kia dealerships in Korea, could you "please" inquire why the BMS update fix isn't available outside of Korea? In America, we're at a standstill with no solutions in sight. I'm active on the Kia Soul EV FB and would love to share some good news.

 

[akhat]

-
I got a recall notice today for my white Soul EV today.
This is a Model Year 2015 27kWh car with a replacement E400 high-voltage battery.
see :- Analysis of a replacement battery.

My blue car, a 2015 Soul EV still has the original E375 high-voltage battery. It is not recalled.

Details of the reason for the recall here :- 2015-2019MY Soul EV - High Voltage Battery - Basis of Safety Defect Determination 573.6(c)(6)



According to InsideEVs the recall will be a software update to the BMS.
see :- ( U.S ) Kia Recalls 2,700 First-Generation Soul EVs Over Battery Fire Risk


In South Korea Kia recalled 4,600 cars.
-

A newer version of the NHTSA recall notice is here - NHTSA Part 573 Safety Recall Report

hello, I need battery modules for Kia Soul 2017 EV, can you suggest someone in Korea?

 

[JejuSoul]

You won't be able to get the 37.5Ah cells anymore, so you'll have to use 40Ah

Try from Alibaba.:- Brand new Sk innovation battery cell NMC 3.7V 40Ah 42Ah 50Ah 55Ah 60Ah 74Ah 87.5Ah li-ion pouch

It is not a good idea to mix cells of varying capacities. But if you have no other option it is worth a try.
Let us know how it works.

 

[JejuSoul]

This recall seems to have started in Germany. Talked about here. :- Rückruf BMS - März 2024

And here is a google translate version of the recall letter.

Recall Kia Soul EV: Software update for high-voltage battery management system (BMS)
Vehicle identification number: xxx
Dear Mr. xxx
Thank you for being our customer and for choosing to purchase a KIA.We hope you are very satisfied with our product.Through continuous quality monitoring of our products, it has been discovered that the battery management system (BMS) may not be able to detect an abnormal voltage condition of the battery cells before an electrical short circuit occurs. This could increase the risk of a thermal incident. Kia will therefore update your vehicle's BMS with improved software. On certain vehicles, the BMS may need to be replaced to receive the new software version. If the vehicle's battery management system detects an abnormal voltage in the battery cells after installing the new software, the EV warning light will illuminate, the charging capacity will be limited to 80% and the vehicle will be placed in a reduced-power limp home mode. In this case, a subsequent replacement may be necessary .High voltage battery required. We ask you to make an appointment with your Kia partner immediately. The estimated time to complete the work is approximately 2.5 hours. All necessary work will of course be carried out free of charge for you. Our primary goal is your satisfaction with our products, which is why we are recalling all potentially affected vehicles to ensure that your vehicle receives the latest technical standards and that no incidents occur.

It is quite amusing how the original German letter has been translated from the actual situation.
"After 3 battery fires it has been discovered that the battery management system (BMS) may not be able to detect an abnormal voltage condition of the battery cells before an electrical short circuit occurs."
becomes
"Through continuous quality monitoring of our products, it has been discovered that the battery management system (BMS) may not be able to detect an abnormal voltage condition of the battery cells before an electrical short circuit occurs"

Another quote from the German Media :- Fahrzeugrückruf – Kia Soul
"This short circuit could in turn cause the battery to overheat, which is potentially dangerous for the driver, passengers and other road users."
Compare this with what InsideEVs said Apr 10, 2023 : -
Kia Recalls 2,700 First-Generation Soul EVs Over Battery Fire Risk

 

[ksoul2084]

You would never in a million years get a letter that specific and customer focussed from KIA here.

They do say "This could increase the risk of a thermal incident". Thermal incidents sound like something you want to avoid.

 

[Cliff]

Why do you mention BMS temperature harnesses?
We have always talked about this as a voltage issue.
The original wiring harness connected to 96 voltage sensors and 8 temperature sensors.
Do you know how the updated harness is different?

My car has an updated harness and has had a BMS software fix. It works fine.
I don't know why the BMS software fix is not applied in North America.

The original cabling was made by Yura a company in South Korea.
Yura : Eco-Friendly Automotive Components

I am in the US and Kia, via warranty recall, updated my car's battery harness and BMS. They already had my car in the shop for 7 months, waiting for a gearbox. I told them to replace the battery while awaiting the gearbox, as SOH was below 70%. When I picked up the vehicle they had not replaced the battery pack. Kia said we "first have to update the BMS and harness, then we'll see how it goes." Frustrated, I drove about 15 miles before it died; back to the shop. Point is, something in the BMS and harness update seemed to kill my vehicle, as it was running fine before the "fix."

 

[pgeller]

I am in the US and Kia, via warranty recall, updated my car's battery harness and BMS. They already had my car in the shop for 7 months, waiting for a gearbox. I told them to replace the battery while awaiting the gearbox, as SOH was below 70%. When I picked up the vehicle they had not replaced the battery pack. Kia said we "first have to update the BMS and harness, then we'll see how it goes." Frustrated, I drove about 15 miles before it died; back to the shop. Point is, something in the BMS and harness update seemed to kill my vehicle, as it was running fine before the "fix."

That's a major bummer, Cliff. Many here have had the same experience shortly after the SC267 recall work. When you say it "died", how so? Most get the "turtle" light and a message about reduced power or similar, and the car drops into "limp home mode".

pg

 

[JillT]

Yes, I was the first to report this issue. In 2015, I had the original battery, which was later replaced under warranty in 2019. The replacement battery was working fine until 2023 when a recall prompted another replacement. The last battery functioned well initially, allowing me to drive 400 miles without any issues. However, in the third week, the Battery Management System (BMS) triggered a warning, leading to reduced power mode. I promptly brought my vehicle back to Kia Service in early December, and it has been sitting idle since then.

Hi Kim - I am in the same boat. Kia Soul EV+ 2016, was told to replace the battery in 2019 then was called in March of 2024 for a recall. Took my car for service anyhow (just hit 60,000 miles) and they did the recall repair. Six weeks later on the way to work, got the warning and went to Turtle mode. Was told it was error code P1AD1 and they were opening an SC267 on the car. Last update is that they should "park and hold" and that "counter measures are under investigation" with no ETA. So basically no car. I have been advised to call Kia Corporate for options. Any advice???

 

[JillT]

Hi all. I'm active on the Soul EV Owners Facebook page, not here, but I came here to check out this thread and it is MAGNIFICENT. I thank you all for your detailed sharing. I'm commenting now to add a little bit of humor.

For a month I've had two unopened recall letters from Kia sitting on my desk. Why unopened? Because I have a 2016 with a battery replaced in 2021, before I bought the car used, so I don't know if the second battery is new or remanufactured. But I can get up to 150 miles of range hyper-miling in summer, so, do I want to get a new BMS and harness and then have my battery replaced? NO WAY! That's why I didn't open the dreaded recall letters. But fire sounds bad and reading this thread finally got me to open them, sure they were for SC267 and SC287. [Cue scary music.] I opened the first and it was for the parking brake! I opened the second it was also for the parking brake for my old, leased car!

Such relief!

I am sorry for all of you who are dealing with this ridiculous software situation, and I know I might get a new recall notice any day, but I hope some of you are at least amused by my story.

Good luck to everyone!

You are me and I am now car-less dealing with Kia corporate. 2016 EV+ 60K miles, was told they are looking at counter measures with no ETA of when it will be fixed. It is April 2024..Did you ever get your car back???

 

[JillT]

Late to the thread, same thing happened to me. 2016 Kia EV+ with battery replaced in 2019, recall in March of 2024, had 6 weeks, got the P1AD1 error and filed a SC267 recall notice and the latest word is Kia is working on "counter measures with no available ETA on a solution".

 

[pgeller]

Late to the thread, same thing happened to me. 2016 Kia EV+ with battery replaced in 2019, recall in March of 2024, had 6 weeks, got the P1AD1 error and filed a SC267 recall notice and the latest word is Kia is working on "counter measures with no available ETA on a solution".

Sounds like all the rest, Jill. Perhaps your local newspaper or tv news station has a "consumer advocacy" section/editor that would be interested in stirring the pot?