Battery Recall for cars with E400 high-voltage battery.

[BEC]

We just got our 2016 back from the BMS/wiring harness recall update (and the second parking brake recall). It didn't throw a trouble code right away, so we got it back. We shall see what happens. I need to go out and run do a Soul Spy dump just to see where it is.

We also apparently have a bad A/C compressor (very expensive and part on backorder), but that's for another thread.


Added: my paperwork said the BMS/wiring harness was for recall SC267.

 

[JejuSoul]

A couple of details about the second BMS upgrade for this recall that fixed the first 'limp mode' upgrade.
They asked that the car be charged to 80% before I brought it in.
The update took about 5 minutes.
The service guy showed the tablet screen showing the diagnosis.
It shows the Voltage Deviation at 0.1V. This is a pass.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 1.4V
( I have no idea how this test would distinguish between a degraded battery and a fire-risk battery - maybe it doesn't. )
The car has been running fine for a week since the upgrade. No more limp mode.

 

[andrew1joe]

Is there an official recall for this second BMS update and all cars will get the update or will it only be done after the car goes into limp mode?

 

[andrew1joe]

It shows the Voltage Deviation at 0.1V. This is a pass.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 1.4V
( I have no idea how this test would distinguish between a degraded battery and a fire-risk battery - maybe it doesn't. )

If an EV had deviation of 1.4V that would mean the car won’t be able to drive at all. One or more cells would be below 2.8V when the car is fully charged (3.2V - 1.4V). I believe that’s well below 0% SoC for the lithium cells and below cut off point.

 

[pgeller]

I think you meant 3.2-1.4=1.8v.

A drop of 0.14v is probably closer to a “failed” condition.

Pg

 

[andrew1joe]

I think you meant 3.2-1.4=1.8v.

A drop of 0.14v is probably closer to a “failed” condition.

Pg

No sorry typo…4.2v - v1.4 = 2.8v. Typing on a phone :|

 

[kim]

If SOH is lower than 60% software removes lower limit and allows battery to go to 2,5v

 

[andrew1joe]

If SOH is lower than 60% software removes lower limit and allows battery to go to 2,5v

Hmmm can you provide source? The only lithium battery chemistry that can go down to 2.5v safely is LFP and LTO which is not used by Kia Soul. Our battery chemistry can only go down to 3.0v before permanent damage occurs.

 

[JejuSoul]

If an EV had deviation of 1.4V that would mean the car won’t be able to drive at all. ...

Yes. 1.4V does not seem possible. Either the number I was told is a mistake, or the BMS creates a fake value when something is badly wrong with the battery.
The highest number I have seen on a badly degraded battery is 0.36V. While driving a bad cell can go as much as 0.36V LOWER than the rest. The car will turtle. When charging starts that bad cell will instantly switch from being lower to being HIGHER than the rest. Charging will cease when that cell is 0.36V higher than the rest.

 

[JejuSoul]

If SOH is lower than 60% software removes lower limit and allows battery to go to 2,5v

No. I have not seen this happen.
The BMS does not allow the battery to go below the point where the curve drops steeply.

 

[pgeller]

Jeju, thats a small island! How many laps can you make on a full charge?

So, now that you have updated BMS code, is it all working as expected?

Thanks for all the great feedback.

pg

 

[faf625]

So this issue is fixed? All kia souls will be updated and returned soon?

 

[JejuSoul]

Jeju, thats a small island! How many laps can you make on a full charge?

One. The bike path around the coast is 240km. You can't drive a car on some of it.

From November 2015 - What's your Real world actual range?

Took a trip around the island today. 215km driven. Still had 20km range or 13% SOC.
Weather was perfect 20C, no rain, no wind.
Drove on the coast road - all driving at just above sea level.
Average speed was 36km/h. Average efficiency 9.4 km / kWh = 10.6 kWh/100km
Got the battery warning light at 190km - you lose acceleration, but can carry on regardless.
Did not turtle.

 

[pgeller]

So this issue is fixed? All kia souls will be updated and returned soon?

Let’s wait and see! That would be a nice outcome for many.

pg

 

[JejuSoul]

A correction to my post earlier. I misheard the tech guy. I just checked with him.
Supposedly a new battery will be authorized if the Voltage Deviation is above 0.14V.
Whereas the previous value I gave 1.4V was impossible to trigger, this value seems really easy.
Let's wait and see what actually happens.

 

[kim]

Regarding my post about the 2,5v limit. It could maybe have been a slightly higher than 2,5. I saw this on youtube. A compy changed a lot of bad cells multiple times, but just ended up with the same range, even if the battery health increased a lot. This was because the unlock feature, so gaining SOH again increased this threshold limit. I think it was 'elbilmek' on youtube, a norwegian company that repairs electric cars. And for the record, they dont repair these kind of batterys longer

 

[JejuSoul]

Here's my possible explanation as to why KIa may be offering buybacks to US owners who have gone into limp mode after this recall.

If the trigger for getting a replacement battery due to fire-safety risk is a Voltage Deviation above 0.14V. then a lot of re-manufactured batteries are going to fail.
Replacing the re-manufactured pack with another re-manufactured pack will also fail.
It is not possible to balance the cells exactly when the cells are of varying ages and capacity.
The cost of a re-manufactured pack is $1500, but a new pack costs $15,000.
As long as the buyback is less than $15,000 this is a win for Kia, especially if the buyback is not cash but a discount on your next Kia.

 

[pgeller]

Here's my possible explanation as to why KIa may be offering buybacks to US owners who have gone into limp mode after this recall.

If the trigger for getting a replacement battery due to fire-safety risk is a Voltage Deviation above 0.14V. then a lot of re-manufactured batteries are going to fail.
Replacing the re-manufactured pack with another re-manufactured pack will also fail.
It is not possible to balance the cells exactly when the cells are of varying ages and capacity.
The cost of a re-manufactured pack is $1500, but a new pack costs $15,000.
As long as the buyback is less than $15,000 this is a win for Kia, especially if the buyback is not cash but a discount on your next Kia.

All good points. Being an obsolete car and older battery tech, the costs could be far higher than the book price. It's out-of-sequence work that steals resources from profitable work, never a good plan. If you can get a buyout at a fair price, that seems like a win-win. My estimation would be that the car is worth whatever the price of its contemporary replacement would be, minus depreciation for time and use. New EVs of comparable size and shape cost far more than these cars did in their day.

 

[FLKiaEV]

When I had the battery replaced on my 2016 Soul EV the invoice listed the price as just under $9000. Is the $15000 in Canadian dollars?

 

[pgeller]

Maybe it’s a rebuilt batter pack? Check the part number, see it ends with “R” or “Remanufactured”. Anything’s possible.


Pg